Final Score: Celtics 90, Knicks 86

The Knicks (6-16) came back from a 17-point deficit in the second quarter to take a brief 4th quarter lead, but they ultimately fell to the Celtics (11-14) 90-86.

The Least You Should Know:

Carmelo Anthony scored 26 points off 9-of-24 shooting.

Andrea Bargnani scored 22 points off 9-of-22 shooting.

Pablo Prigioni and Iman Shumpert were a combined 2-of-14 from the field for only 8 points.

Amar’e Stoudemire had another strong performance, scoring 18 points in 30 minutes off the bench.

JR Smith only took one field goal attempt. He scored 2 points.

For the Celtics, Jared Sullinger scored 19 points. Courtney Lee had 18 off the bench. And Jeff Green scored the clutch layup and the foul near the end of the fourth quarter to put the game away.

Amit Badlani

13 points in the 4th quarter is not going to cut it. No, I’m not talking about Carmelo Anthony scoring. I’m talking about the Knicks collectively scoring 13 points in the 4th quarter. THIRTEEN! ON FRIDAY THE 13TH! ON A NIGHT THAT THERE WAS A 13-GAME NBA SCHEDULE!

So I’m giving y’all fair warning to keep away from the Knicks and their bad juju. Kenyon Martin already suffered the wrath of 13. He strained his abdominal muscle in the fourth quarter.

Do you want to put blame on one player for this loss? Then go ahead and put it on JR Smith. He came into the season with the expectation of being the Knicks’ secondary scorer. Tonight, he didn’t take a field goal attempt until the 4th quarter.

Do you want to put the blame on Mike Woodson instead? You can do that too. The Knicks outscored the Celtics 25-14 in the 3rd quarter by sharing the ball. Six different Knicks scored off 8 assists.

In the 4th quarter, the ball stopped moving. The Knicks only had 2 assists. Carmelo Anthony forced up eight shots, most of which came in isolation sets, and could only hit one.

Bright spot was Amar’e. After proving he could play in a back-to-back on Wednesday, he played for 30 minutes tonight with the injury to Kenyon Martin. Hopefully he can keep contributing like this without the injury bug biting again.




228 comments
rgm891
rgm891

It's way to quiet on the Knicks front!!!!!!!!!!

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

Melo, due $130 million, for Griffin, other pieces, and a pick?


Clippers aren't going to do that trade.

IAMINETROBE
IAMINETROBE

i hate the fact that this team went away from pick and roll it used to be the bread and butter 

barnaby87
barnaby87

For the record, i'm not arguing Griffin is better than Melo by any means, but he's still a 20/10 guy and would you rather have him or risk losing Melo for nothing?  In an ideal world, if we were going to trade Melo, we'd get a guy like K-Love, but I doubt Minny would ever consider something like that knowing that Melo would never sign an extension in Minny.

SheSaidSpikeWho
SheSaidSpikeWho

In the waning moments of the game, it looked like Melo was gassed. However, guys just kept giving him the ball over and over without any second thought as to whether that was the right basketball decision. 


Bargnani missed Amar'e a few times because the only thing on his mind was give the ball to Melo. He didn't want it. 


We should have had a two man game going with Melo and Amar'e. I wouldn't have been mad if we fed Amar'e down low because he is the ONLY person that goes to the basket with any consistency...maybe he makes it, maybe he gets fouled and we get an easy point or two. We didn't go to him once. Woody's game plan is unintelligent. Vogel told us that after the playoffs last year. Melo is getting more pissed by the game.


I have no idea what we are doing on either end of the court. People can cite injuries as an excuse all they want. (Yes, we would be a little better with Tyson because he covers up a lot of the defensive shortcomings of the players and yes, the coach). However, the good teams have a set way they play regardless of who is playing. If Wade is sitting, the heat play the same brand of basketball...the spurs can sit their big three and guess what, they still play the same brand of basketball. That doesn't mean they necessarily win those games but the style, the brand does not change. 


This team has NO IDENTITY. Twenty-one games into the season and the coach has no idea who we are as a basketball team...how can we win games?? The only guys that know their role are Melo, Tyson, Kenyon (sometimes he shoots 17 ft jumpers so I'm not so sure), and Prigioni (but that is because he knows his limitations so he only does what he knows he can do). JR doesn't even know his role anymore. 1 shot? You cannot play that many minutes and take one shot. You are hurting the team!! 


Sorry so long. I am pissed off because these dudes look like they were forced to play basketball. And our coach is a f#cking idiot. The End lol. 

barnaby87
barnaby87

As far as I'm concerned, if you could swing Melo and Shump for Griffin, Dudley, Hollins, and a 1st in 2014, you pull the trigger.  Griffin gives us a young PF to build around, Dudley and Hollins give us depth at the 3 and 5, and the first in the stacked draft class would be a solid pick.  In a pipe dream scenario, we would still swing Felton, MWP, and a 1st for Lowry.  Then fire Woodson and lure Thibodeau here.   Trade Amare for Humphires and G. Wallace.  Then we would have enough cap to sign Deng.  Chandler and Bargani come off the books, we lure Rondo here, sign a young-ish center and have a front four of Rondo, THJ, Deng, and Griffin.   Again, pure pipe dream, but why not?  Either way, if Melo wants to go to the clips and we can bring Griffin back, we should.

rgm891
rgm891

I cannot see how this will last any longer guys. How Dolan does not see how bad Woodson is doing on a daily basis. Dolan watches the games. How he doesn't see the boneheaded decisions coming from the sidelines on a day to day basis. Usually when something doesn't work well, you would want to change it make it work out. Woodson has no counter. That's his problem. He has no second option. He doesn't know how to make adjustments whatsoever. I know we have a 6-16 record and our roster is flawed. We gotta find a coach who will set all of our players egos aside and make them play team basketball. Yell at them for not getting back on defense and complaining to the refs. How Woodson just watches and stares at that is mindboggling at best. Teams always are at an advantage on the break.  Bench them when they don't execute on either end of the court. Show the players that horrid play isn't accepted. This will show players such as JR Smith that if you didn't come ready to play because he rather drink and smoke the night before so be it. Enjoy the bench. Woodson has to be a babysister to 28 year olds. Has it really come to this? We need to be on top of our game and can't beat ourselves if we want to beat the Miami's and San Antonio's of this league. How he hasn't utilize our bench when these players aren't performing is hilarious now.  Our team has no heart and it's time for change.  He rides on one player to do everything for him. Melo is gassed at the end of the game. What do you do during practices. Melo vs everyone? This guy needs to look himself in the mirror because how he hasn't realized that iso melo won't win you ball games in this league is comical.  It has come to the point past embarrassment.  Bring back a proven coach in JVG who knows what NY Basketball is all about. I don't mind losing, but when you don't try and communicate on a simple pick and roll is inexcusable Mike Woodson. You see the play 3 million times during the game and still haven't figured it out. Someone save all of us!!!!!! Dolan it's time to release your inner dwarf and make some moves. It start from the coach.      

NYKnickerBocker
NYKnickerBocker

Just in...

Fast food chains in the Toronto area excited about possible Felton trade.

fasheezee
fasheezee

Gilbert Arenas is interested in a comeback. He's considering the Knicks.

barnaby87
barnaby87

@Knicks_Fanatic Exactly.  People below were arguing with me, but i'd do Melo and Shump for Griffin, Hollins, Dudley and a pick

SheSaidSpikeWho
SheSaidSpikeWho

@Knicks_Fanatic Throw in Tyson for DeAndre and as they say "Chris paul drives them to the airport." He doesn't like Griffin or Jordan. Those guys don't want to work hard.

chrisb
chrisb

@barnaby87 to answer your question, yes. I don`t think Melo is going away. I think he is going to stay and wait for round 2

saintknick
saintknick

@barnaby87 Griffin is getting paid 17-21 mil each year for the next 5 seasons. You feel he's the guy you want to start a build around?


edit: keep in mind he's technically regressed since his rookie season, and he's had the advantage of playing with Chris Paul and a really good Center, with deadly shooters around him. I'd much rather hold out and start a rebuild around a two-way player, or not pay anyone 20 million for a while.

rgm891
rgm891

@barnaby87 Do u really want Thibs here? He runs all his players to the ground!!!!

SheSaidSpikeWho
SheSaidSpikeWho

@Kojo Brown He's considering the Knicks? Or are the Knicks considering him? Hibachi can consider whatever team he wants lol.

saintknick
saintknick

@zdiddy4nyk one more thing - since editing takes 100 years with this stupid new system - Melo doesn't need easy shots. Unless he's WIDE open, he gets the ball and goes into ISO every time. A little space won't change that - he never keeps the ball moving unless its with a quick pass or after a failed drive. 


A PG wouldn't make Melo any better. The idea is it would make the other 3 guys on the court more productive, and Melo's presence makes a PG better because he demands so much attention that a good PG can exploit that into mismatches and act as the pivot to find open dudes. Then Melo gets to do what he does best - if nothing opens up, you get it to Melo with 6-7 seconds left and let him get a 40% shot up instead of having another guy on your team stuck with a lower percentage look.


Having a real PG would make the other guys better. Unfortunately, those other guys are all missing wide open looks so I don't know that it would matter much. 


The biggest thing I want in a PG, if the team continues to play this style of offense, is a guy who can contain other PGs. 

saintknick
saintknick

@zdiddy4nyk You know what? JR can create. Melo can create. Shumpert a little. Bargnani can take a guy off a dribble, pablo can find an open man, ETC ETC ETC.


There are a handful of guys in the NBA who are true CREATORS. You just need guys moving the ball. The problem isn't that there aren't willing passers - the problem is a broken offensive system and no one having defined roles AT ALL. Watch our offense - no one knows where to be. When Felton is healthy, he spends 10 minutes a game just looking irritated and yelling at his guys to move. 


I don't know what the deal is, but this team has 0 chemistry, no one knows their role, and no one at all is in rhythm. 

ds2488
ds2488

@zdiddy4nyk What?  Prig was fantastic last night.  Such an improvement over Ray.  Prigs ran the pick and roll with perfection with Stat and Bargs.  Got them good looks all game.  For 3 quarrters, the Celtics had no answer for it.  That's how we built up our big lead.


And then it gets to the 4th and suddenly there are no more pick and rolls.  Just isos.  

IAMINETROBE
IAMINETROBE

@zdiddy4nyk well i meant the way we ran it with amare and felton when they got here that was unstoppable

SheSaidSpikeWho
SheSaidSpikeWho

@zdiddy4nyk Oh, I know. When Kenyon went down, I said "great, our only other semblance of defense is gone." 

SheSaidSpikeWho
SheSaidSpikeWho

@zdiddy4nyk @barnaby87 I agree on Griffin. He won't carry this team anywhere without a decent pg. Since that is the case, you might as well get a PG lol. Griffin can't shoot, can hardly be in the game during the clutch, he has knee issues, he's soft...what else? 


Yup, he would make Dolan money because he can jump really high.

saintknick
saintknick

@rgm891 Coaches like Thibs change man. He's a young coach who now has experienced breaking down players. He'll be much more receptive to maintaining his guys in the future, mark my word. He's the kind of coach who gets better.


Didn't Doc and Phil do the same thing in their coaching careers, but learn the lesson?

Tikki
Tikki

@Knicks_Fanatic Oh, I was just referring to Jordan-Tyson.  Wasn't thinking about a monster deal like that.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Tikki@Knicks_Fanatic 

The Clippers are at $74.8 million in salary right now. They can't take back anymore than 800K in a deal. With a Melo-Chandler ($35.5 million )swap, they would have to send back at least, $34.7 million. So they would have to send Blake, Jordan, and about $7.5 million in other contracts.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

Once a team either uses the non-taxpayer mid-level exception OR receives a player in a sign-and-trade deal, the apron becomes their hard cap. The apron is defined as $4M over the tax line (for this season, $75.6M).

The Clippers are capped at the apron.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Tikki@Knicks_Fanatic@SheSaidSpikeWho 

I think the Clippers are hard capped at the apron. The used their MLE to sign players. They wouldn't be able to trade unless they sent out more than a few million. The total salaries would need to pretty much match.It is complicated by the new CBA.



Tikki
Tikki

@Knicks_Fanatic I think @SheSaidSpikeWho is just referring to those two as the centerpiece of the swap; their salaries are close enough - Clips would just need to send another ~$2M-$4M in salary (Collison, Dudley, etc.) Not hard. (Not saying this deal is desirable by the Knicks or anything, but easily made feasible)

chrisb
chrisb

@knickfan2 Exactly. Neither can create their own shot, defense is not in their vocab. You want to really kill this franchise, make that trade

rgm891
rgm891

@saintknick @rgm891 I hope your right man. Thibs is a great coach for sure. I just hope he learns his lesson!

rgm891
rgm891

@zdiddy4nyk Yeah tonight is going to be interesting without Stat and Kmart. Horford and Millsap and Teague are going to have field days. This is getting uglier as we speak!!! I hope your right

saintknick
saintknick

@zdiddy4nyk @saintknick I bet 80% of Amare's points over the last two years have come by posting up. He's the only guy on the team other than melo that just sticks an arm out and waits for the ball to come to him. 


Melo and Amare are teh same type of player within 20 feet. Its just that Amare gets to play against the 2nd or 3rd best defender and Melo is always up against the best possible defender.

saintknick
saintknick

@zdiddy4nyk @saintknick What do you mean by "create their own shot"? Because all those players other than Shump and Chandler and Kmart (and bigs rarely do this anyway) are able to take the ball from prone and make little moves to get space. 


What you are asking for is someone who can get the ball moving around the court on the dribble. The problem is you could put magic in his prime on this team, and the ball will still stick to Melo, Amare, and JR. Shumpert gets the ball with space and thinks about shooting too long and ends up guarded and lets the D get reset. JR and Melo both wait to go into one-on-one. Amare either jacks up a jumper or goes in the post.


The team is built with a bunch of guys who don't work on offense for anyone but themselves. A PG is needed - you are right - but it isn't going to fix this team. This is a very poorly constructed team on all sides of the game.

saintknick
saintknick

@zdiddy4nyk @saintknick I dunno man - his best seasons have been with Iverson or Andre Miller. PGs are important on Melo teams because they are necessary to make everyone else better around him.

NYKnickerBocker
NYKnickerBocker

Prigs is a good PG. Problem is he is old and should be a backup at this point. He has a good eye for where the ball should be. He's just slow and doesn't penetrate, and unfortunately the best PG we have.

ds2488
ds2488

@zdiddy4nyk @ds2488 Prigs is not an ideal starting pg...I'm not arguing with that.  He's better than Felton though, and that's unquestionable to me.


Rewatch that game.  Worst case Prigs is getting the ball up with 16 seconds left on the shotclock.  That's worst case.  That's more than enough time to run a set.  


Then watch what happens.  Nobody knows what they're doing.  Everyone's looking around at each other.  


That's coaching.  For that matter, if Pablo has trouble bringing the ball up the floor, you know, the "coach" and his teammates can help him with that.  Set a pick for him.  Give him some help. 

saintknick
saintknick

@zdiddy4nyk @ds2488 He's a very good backup PG to have. There are maybe 15 players in the NBA who truly create for others, and they are all fast, can get to the basket, and make you pay if they are open. 


But then there are 20 other guys who "create" by just being smart, finding an open guy after the ball has been moving, using a fake pass or pump fake to create switches to get other guys better looks ETC. Pablo is one of those guys. Guys like that need dudes around them who move the ball with the dribble. Knicks have JR who has been terrible, and NO ONE ELSE who really dribbles the ball. This team would be so much better with even a guy like Nate Robinson playing along side Pablo. 


Felton is SUPPOSED to be that dribble guy - and he has been which is why he's effective with either Kidd or Pablo on the floor as well. But a hammy is a season long issue, and killer for a dribble drive guy.