Knicks lose their 7th straight in demoralizing fashion

Harris Decker

Losing to teams like the Chicago Bulls, Indiana Pacers and Miami Heat is one thing. But the Detroit Pistons are a sloppy team without a firm grasp on what their team identity is. Sound familiar? The same can be said about the New York Knicks. Still, losing to teams like the Pistons hurts more than up against the true class of the Eastern Conference. Especially when you blow a big lead.

Amare Stoudemire

The Knicks came out Monday night with an intensity that we’ve seen flashes of during the entire season. Carmelo Anthony was draining his shots, Amar’e Stoudemire was getting great pushes in the paint and Tyson Chandler was on his way to a big rebounding night. In the first quarter, the Pistons turned the ball over six times. That’s double the amount of turnovers that the Bulls had during the entire game on Sunday. Things were looking good for the Knicks in the first half, as they led by five at the break.

In the third quarter, things really went down hill. The Pistons shot 58 percent from the field, led by Andre Drummond and Greg Monroe, who combined for 17 in the frame. Down at the other end of the court, the Knicks struggled mightily. The ball movement, which had shown up in the first half, had disappeared. Only three Knicks scored in the third quarter (Stoudemire, Anthony and a lone Raymond Felton three-pointer).

By the second half of the fourth quarter, the game was well out of hand for the Knicks. They trailed by 13 with 3:42 to go and that’s all she wrote.

J.R. Smith took the opportunity to finally hit a few shots. After opening the game 0-for-his-first-10, he scored an amazing 16 points in just under nine minutes, but by that point the game was over. Smith’s 5 for 17 might not look that bad but he literally couldn’t make a shot when the Knicks needed him most. Tim Hardaway Jr., Felton and Chandler also had horrendous nights shooting the ball.

The body language was also a huge issue down the stretch. Anthony, Smith and Chandler were all visibly upset and when that happens, the team plays even sloppier. They were careless with the ball and went into extreme isolation mode in the third. When the fourth quarter started, it was Pablo Prigoni, Hardaway Jr., Iman Shumpert, Jeremy Tyler and Chandler. When the ball was being dribbled up, Walt Clyde Frazier asked a pointed question: Where would the offense come from?

The answer came a few minutes later when Anthony checked back in. In the two and a half minutes he was on the bench in the fourth, the Knicks didn’t score a single point.

Another tough loss and another uninspired performance from the Knicks.




139 comments
Mr.Boots
Mr.Boots

Said it then, and I'll say it now:


Bottom line, it was stupidity at the time to put all the serious money in the 3/4/5 spots when the NBA was obviously a PG's league, and it is still stupidity to have most of the salary cap tied up in those positions now.  

cole3244
cole3244

since dolan has owned the team the sop has been to give away draft picks to acquire nba ready players or stars, how has that worked out for the champ knicks under the dolan way of doing things, not so good imo.  

some here think the draft is a waste compared to getting stars, its obvious history is not their strong point along with being proficient in bb acumen and that might explain the positive patsy attitude some have in the face of the obvious mismanagement of the knicks for the last 20 years.


the salary cap alone makes the draft the best and most logical way to build a team.  why confuse the fanatics with the facts they will only interfere with their simple minded approach to how to build a team along with their belief that o is more important than d in winning a champ or even in being competitive.

MeloStat301
MeloStat301

Bottom line...best player we have had since Pat Ewing is...Carmelo Anthony...no if's and's or buts about it..period.

chudogz1
chudogz1

I apologize! It feels like 20 yrs since Ewing retired..... Who is the best player the Knicks have had since AFTER the days of Jeff Van Gundy, Patrick Ewing, Charles Oakley, Anthony Mason, Mark Jackson and Charles Smith??had to throw that one in...( OUCH)

hashburry
hashburry

First JR talks about heart, now Chandler not sure about his future.  Do these guys actually think they are not part of the problem?  Chandler couldn't help breaking his leg at the beginning of the season, which probably contributed to the terrible start along with JR coming off surgery and being suspended.  But these guys have not lived up to their contracts and are a big part of why the Knicks have continued to be terrible.  I can't imagine how disheartening it is to see Chandler miss layup after layup from point blank range.  His rebound totals are inflated as he plays volleyball with himself and can't make an easy put back, leading to him dogging it back to the defensive end and watching as the opponents make an easy lay up.  JR is just about the worst value in the NBA.  PLays no defense at all.  Looks like the dumbest player on the court, and shoots the Knicks out of way more games than he helps win.  


It is painful to watch the Knicks blow assignment after assignment on defense, switch for no reason, end up in zone defense like a high school team because they can't cover man to man, get into their predictable no pass offense and watch Melo try to score on every possession because he has no help.


There is absolutely no reason to believe this team can make any changes that will make them competitive and forget about a championship.  Anyone that talks about the championship is absolutely silly.  There are too many franchises out west that are run at a high professional level, along with a handful in the East for the no basketball knowledge Knicks' organization to ever seriously compete.

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

People who are looking back at the trade:

In retrospect, we essentialy gave up Melo for Ill-Willson Chandler and an unprotected first rounder this year for Melo. The Knicks abysmal season is now compacted by the fact that we gave up this pick. The simple fact is that you make the trade for a star player at the time (even though many believed he would sign with the Knicks if not traded) and it is going to cost you, at least, a first round pick. Now you can try to protect it (which Denver would scoff at) but you have to have a belief that you had a core of Melo/Tyson/STAT (who was decently healthy at the time), that we would be good for a certain number of years which included this season as one of them. We won 54 games last year with almost the same roster and we were slated by analysts to be anywhere between the 3rd and 5th seed in the east. If this perfect circus of a season doesn't happen you are basically looking at the Nuggets getting a pick between 20-30 in the first round. You wouldn't trade Melo for Ill-Will and a 22nd first round pick? This season is bringing out the worst in everybody and its easy to say I cant believe Denver has our pick but we traded it with the logic that our guys would be good enough not to allow Denver to get a lottery pick. Its just the perfect storm really from our players not giving a crap to our coaching staff not knowing what to do.

What else can you say, this is Knicks basketball. If you don't feel like you are being troll'd by the Knicks than it wouldn't be the Knicks.

Bottom line is that we need to rebuild. We have a pick in 2015 and we should do whatever it takes to get rid of bad contracts and if you cant, keep STAT and Ray in the starting lineup to start project tank. Do a sign and trade with Melo during the offseason and get young prospects and picks. If Melo chooses to resign he should do it for less money or walk.

chudogz1
chudogz1

@ Knixtradamus. It all sounds good, until u look at our teams draft history... If we had a competent front office, then maybe, but these guys would take Saric if given the first pick.. ALLS guitar shimmy cares about is drafting guys from other countries, to get more fans..... That's why he took Fredvik Weis, was all on Rubios nuts, forgetting to scout Curry in the mean while.... And it's why he took Gallo.... Think about it

knickgirl35
knickgirl35

@Knixtradamus  stop hatin knixt. stay melo. PLEASE STAY IN NY!

if you had a lambo you wouldn't be sayin shiit about mel.

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@Biggie Listen its not about how the draft picks turn out. Its about the draft picks being held in high value to other league executives, you know the guys who do the trading and negotiating. Its house money and is often the main component to obtaining any superstar. You don't wrecklessly trade first rounders because you can say well look how they turned out. You are essentially trading lottery tickets to teams. A guy doesn't want a lottery ticket after it is a scratched off loser (which most are), but if you offer it to him before..then its an asset.

MeloStat301
MeloStat301

@Biggie They don't take into consideration how draft picks can turn into Kevin Durant...or Greg Oden...its a gamble.

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@chudogz  People forget, but Houston and Spree stuck around longer. Before injuries started plaguing him and he took that awful contract, Houston palyed at a high level.

Melo, obviously. Arguably the best player we've had. Amare lasted 6 months.


Thing is, it's tough to single out players in such an awful decade of bball. You can only judge analyzing where they're at now.

- Zbo

- Crawford

- Lee


Yet, none of these were contributing to winning ball.

chudogz1
chudogz1

@xmenreturn. ???? No answer now..... Before I was a member of the short bus for saying Melo is the best player we've had since the Ewing days..... Where u at?? At least give an answer so u kno where we stand

MeloStat301
MeloStat301

@chudogz That would be since 2000...the pickings are slim...Spree...H20...David lee...Starbury..Crawford....I'd take Melo over all those guys...I'd say Carmelo.




knickgirl35
knickgirl35

@kiidstuuff  chris smith is not a bball player. he is someone who likes to play bball.

xmenreturn
xmenreturn

@kiidstuuff Oh No, JR will go on a rampage again. Surely Chris Smith is bad enough to play for our Knicks!

Mr.Boots
Mr.Boots

@onewhoknix Gee, then I forget where the Knicks traded Galinari and Mozgov to. Could you refresh my memory? Wherever Gallo went, I seem to remember him as an integral part of the other team's demand.

Blaze NYK
Blaze NYK

@onewhoknix  Eh, that is not true at all.  We traded Wilson Chandler, Gallo, Mozgov, Felton, Anthony Randolph, Eddie Curry's expiring contract, and a first round pick for Melo and Billups and some other garbage players.  


Sure, we would not have been able to keep Chandler and Gallo if we had not made the Melo trade.  And we eventually got Felton back.  But lets review what happened because of the Melo trade.


Donnie picked up Billups one year team option at the end of that season.  He did that because we had no point guard and Billups and Melo had a history/chemistry and some success together.  No one questioned that move.  Felton is obviously not great but if we had not swapped Felton for Billups, we would have had Felton for the following year.  We also would have had Eddie Curry's expiring, which means we could have used that money to say sign Gallo or Chandler or get Tyson Chandler.  We also would have had Mosgov, a cheaper option than Tyson Chandler.  This also means when GG comes to town, he would not have used the amnesty on Billups, meaning The Knicks could have saved it for Amare Stoudemire.


People think that if you bring all this up it means you are anti-Melo.  Its not really about that.  And its not about how good is Gallo now or how good is Mozgov or Wilson Chandler or where will Denver's pick be this year or wouldn't Amare break down anyways.   Its about how that trade basically got rid of all our remaining assets that we had.  We had a team with Amare and Felton and a bunch of young players, a draft pick this year and an expiring contract with Eddie Curry.  In one trade all of that was gone.  Granted we got a really good player out of it.  But then its compounded with using the amnesty on Billups to get Chandler, basically making it impossible to get rid of STAT.  Its not a bad move by Donnie to pick up Billups option.  And its not a bad move to sign Tyson Chandler.  But it was a bad move to pick up Billups option, then immediately turn around and use the amnesty to get Chandler.  


The point is that Melo trade backed us into a corner.  If he waits until free agency to come to the Knicks, he would not have lost that much money and the team would have had a lot more options to build around Melo.  Its a false argument to say well Gallo and Ill Will and Mozgov would not have been that great of a core to build around Melo and Amare.  Its that we would have had a lot more flexibility to do sign and trades, would have saved the amnesty, etc.  


Ultimately I think Melo realizes this in hindsight and hopefully he does the right thing and resigns with The Knicks for less to make up for that trade.  Again, this is not a knock on Melo as a player.  But if a championship is what he really wants, he should look at that trade and realize that he kind of screwed himself.  He could not foresee STAT breaking down as bad as he did, but the trade made it very hard for The Knicks to make any moves.  Of course some of the moves we've made since then (using the amnesty on Billups, trading for Camby, trading for Bargnani) have only compounded the problem.

Sandro
Sandro

@onewhoknix

Of course you give up a 1st rounder for a Superstar. You just have to be smart enough, and it doesn't take much, to protect the pick.

Had the Knicks protected the pick, right now we'd be ok with this record. We could tank the rest of the season and we'd end up with a Top 5 pick of our own. Had you not traded for Bargnani, you'd have your 2016 and 2018 pick to throw at Boston for Rondo.

That leaves you with a plan of: Rondo - Top 5 pick (Julis Randle) and cap space in 2015 to fill out the roster with good role players. That might entice Melo.

Right now, all you have is a Top 5 pick going to Denver and Melo leaving for nothing.

What a difference good management can make, right?

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@onewhoknix  

The trade for Melo was far more than Ill Will and a pick. 

February 22, 2011: As part of a 3-team trade, traded by the Denver Nuggets with Renaldo Balkman, Chauncey Billups, Anthony Carter and Shelden Williams to the New York Knicks; the Denver Nuggets traded a 2015 2nd round draft pick to the Minnesota Timberwolves; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Kosta Koufos to the Denver Nuggets; the Minnesota Timberwolves traded Corey Brewer to the New York Knicks; the New York Knicks traded Wilson Chandler, Raymond Felton, Danilo Gallinari, Timofey Mozgov, cash, a 2012 2nd round draft pick (Quincy Miller was later selected), a 2013 2nd round draft pick (Romero Osby was later selected) and a 2014 1st round draft pick to the Denver Nuggets; and the New York Knicks traded Eddy Curry, Anthony Randolph and cash to the Minnesota Timberwolves.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/a/anthoca01.html

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@onewhoknix  Imo, it's even simpler:

- Will that pick turn into a superstar like Melo? Will it be a scoring champ? An All-NBA player?

- Melo's output is better than Chandler and Gallo's combined. Denver fans hate Gallo's contract.

- The idea was to win now. It worked last season, but now that Woodson's been exposed as a JV coach, obvioiusly things went down the sh!tter and everyone gave up on this coach.

- No one expected so many Knicks to underperform next season, no one expected Woodson to be exposed as a pathetic excuse for a coach. Furthermore, no one expected the team to have such a sad record given the previous season.



Knicks don't do "rebuild". Never have. Never will. The likely moves will be to try and move the expiring contracts of AB, Amare, and TC to surround Melo with young talent, or maybe an overpaid big name player to see if it entices Melo.

chudogz1
chudogz1

@ Very Silent Jay.... That's fair.... And I'm sure the same people complaining about Melo were complaining about the last 3 mentioned..

chudogz1
chudogz1

@ MeloStat301. I say Melo too, all tho I did like Spree, he's from the JVG era.... I've been waiting for @xmenreturn response, but I guess he went on time out... LOL

chudogz1
chudogz1

@thatsagoodpoint. The 2nd time around?

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@Sandro @onewhoknix What could you expect from an organization that amnesties Billups (1yr remaining) instead of STAT (3 years remaining)? One that trades value to a team for Marcus Camby only to trade him back to that team for more picks and take an even worse player back?

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@Knicks_Fanatic @onewhoknix I just listed the main assets that still have value to this date involved int he trade. Timofey, Raymond, Danilo (injury prone) have been nonfactors and when you make a trade you have to see if the piece you are getting back will help more than what you give away.

xmenreturn
xmenreturn

@VerySilentJay @onewhoknix I beg to differ, I expected Woody to be exposed as a coach because he was exposed already during the playoffs last year.  

We allowed our leaders and best shooters to leave and then many expected to be much better this year!


onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@thatsagoodpoint @onewhoknix This is why this season has been the hardest for me to watch. I have sat through Howard Eisley, Frank Williams, Lee Nailon, Al Harrington, Chris Duhon, and Marbury just to name a few. All those teams were who they were, teams not slated to go far. Last year we finally have hope and it seemed like if Woody stuck to the gameplan we had all season we could have given Indiana a better run at it. Then you have this year and the Knicks org repeatedly slaps you in the face with whatever I have been watching all season. The definition of trainwreck.

Sandro
Sandro

@thatsagoodpoint @Biggie

That one and the Shumpert for OKC's 1st rounder that we turned down...because of Collison.

We ended up with no Collison and no 1st rounder LOL.

The worst FO in the NBA.

NoVaCaInE
NoVaCaInE

@Sandro @VerySilentJay @thatsagoodpoint @MeloStat301 @Biggie  The Knicks didn't get it right when they drafted Gallo or Jordan Hill. Even tho they turned out to be solid role players, they aren't stars. They were also the wrong choices for the Knicks. 


This year's Draft only has 1 star. The other players will take a little while to develop on the NBA level. I don't see anyone outside of he who plays like Melo, being a star in this league.


Stars don't grow on trees. That's why the Knicks need to keep Melo. 

Sandro
Sandro

@VerySilentJay @Sandro@thatsagoodpoint@MeloStat301@Biggie 

I'm not, BY ANY MEANS, saying that the Knicks would get it right at their 1st attempt. The chances of that happening are slim.

But the chances of we building a good team around a Melo making 130 mil, are none.

And I take the slim chances over the no chances.

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@Sandro @thatsagoodpoint @MeloStat301 @Biggie  

Portland didn't screw up on Roy, are you kidding me? Did you actually watch him play? Dude was a beast. One of the best SG's in the league in his time.

It was impossible to foresee all the injuries he eventually went through a couple of years into his career.


And Biggie's point was completely validated by what you just said.


- Portland got it right, after multiple tries. 

- Detroit just got it right with Drummond and Monroe....After how long?

- Washington...Porter, Vesely.... Need I go on?

- Cleveland. Thompson, Bennet....What?

- Even your mighty Masai relies on trades more than the draft. The only players he stuck with in Denver was Lawson and Faried.

In Toronto his team is almost entirely constructed off FA and trades. Valanciunas and DeRozan are picks that were made without him. Why? Because Toront's history of drafting has been more of misses than hits.


The draft has value, of course. But to assume you get it right immediately, or even 2 years or 3 years in is a huge leap, misconception and stretch. 

It takes timing, great scourtng, and too much luck to pull off what OKC and SA have done.

Yet you assume the Knicks will be able to do it.

Sandro
Sandro

@MeloStat301 @Sandro@thatsagoodpoint@Biggie

Okay, fair enough.


Now you tell me, the history of Knicks surrounding Stars with good role players....is it great?? No.

What makes you think, re-signing Melo this year would be any different???

There's a better chance the Knicks make a mistake and get it right in ONE good player in the draft, than they re-signing Melo and surround him with FIVE good players via free agency.

MeloStat301
MeloStat301

@Sandro @thatsagoodpoint@MeloStat301@Biggie Draft has value, but tell me,.... the history of the knicks drafting....is it great?? No.


What makes you think, a pick in this years or copuple years from now would be any different???


Because I don't think so.


Its still a gamble, especially with the Knicks.

Sandro
Sandro

@thatsagoodpoint @MeloStat301@Biggie

Every Superstar in this league came from the draft.

Portland was screwed on Oden, but got it right on Lillard.
Portland was screwed on Roy, but got it right on Aldridge.

But I guess the draft has no value at all.

The Knicks have been underestimating the draft for years now.
21-40 is the result.

But hey, we have a Star.

chudogz1
chudogz1

@ MeloStat301. I was figuring Nate... He must be from Jersey;)

MeloStat301
MeloStat301

@chudogz Both spree and Houston outlasted JVG but I get what your saying...so technically spree and Houston played a little bit after that era...if I were to exclude Carmelo...I'd say Starbury only for his talent....he did average close to 20 and 10 his first year with us I believe.   Obviously he made the team implode...after that I'd say Crawford.

chudogz1
chudogz1

@ thatsagoodpoint. That's fine, he did stay after.... I would still take Melo, although I did like Spree too, if he also stayed after

chudogz1
chudogz1

@ Very Silent Jay... Fair enough, I remember it all

MeloStat301
MeloStat301

@chudogz Thomas also outlasted JVG...both he and Houston played through it...Thomas and Houston made the playoffs with us in 03-04..I believe.

chudogz1
chudogz1

@thatsagoodpoint. Didn't he play for Jeff Van Gundy?

Sandro
Sandro

@onewhoknix

I don't expect much good. That's why I said we would suck this year lol.

The Knicks FO is a joke. We overpaid for Melo, because Dolan decided to step in, when Walsh would've got him for much less.

All they had to do was not pick Billups option up and protect the pick as an insurance. That would allow you to have cap space by 2011, when CP3 could opt out of his contract, while saving your amnesty for Amare.

Right now, the Knicks could have Chris Paul instead of Chandler, Carmelo Anthony and whoever they'd decided to sign with Amare's money.

The Knicks always make badly moves. Even when it's the right move, like trading for Carmelo, they find a way to do it wrong.

This summer will be something else.

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@Knicks_Fanatic @onewhoknix Bingo. TO me this is the biggest travesty. Billups had about a year left on his contract but we amnesty him as if Tyson was going to put us over Miami without a PG. The league basically makes an amnesty rule exclusively catered to Dolan and he messes it up. Ironic much? You get rid of Amare and you have CP3, Melo, and another big time player taking place of Tyson's contract. I hate to look back because retrospect is 20/20 but man WTF!

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@onewhoknix  

Just showing the whole deal, not debating Melo value as a player. Dolan has failed to capitalize on the asset that is Melo. He took over the Melo trade and paid more than he had to. Then by taking Billups back, it cost us the amnesty that we could have used on STAT.

Just a what if. Everyone says what was the big deal about including Mozgov. If Mozgov was kept, perhaps we don't trade for Chandler and let Billups play out his contract. You then have amnesty for STAT and a good deal of cap space. 

No matter, we are 21 and too many losses.

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@onewhoknix @VerySilentJay  Yeah, sure, no doubt.

I was just pointing at the whole difference between one season to the next when the core remained and these key players left.

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@VerySilentJay @onewhoknix missed my point dude. These guys broke down and retired. I know of all their value to us last season but we didn't let them walk, their old bodies did.

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@onewhoknix  Are you kidding? Pretty much every player has been vocal as to how important each vet was for the team:


- Kidd was a coach on the floor and made things happen on both ends

- Camby and KT were the image of discipline and focus (KT arguably changed the season's direction for us).

- Sheed was well known for a locker room glue type of guy that helped the chemistry develop.

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@Sandro @Biggie @xmenreturn  Please, not even in your wildest dream did you ever think this would be our record.

Sure, you predicted whatever you wanted, but not this.


Sandro
Sandro

@Biggie @xmenreturn

I didn't predict numbers. I predicted sucking. Which we do.

So, I appreciate the credit.

onewhoknix
onewhoknix

@xmenreturn @VerySilentJay @onewhoknix lol which leaders did we ALLOW to leave? Last time I checked Jason retired and is coaching BKN. Rasheed retired and is coaching the Detroit. Kurt Thomas retired. Camby is well...Camby. Im glad you had the foresight xmen to see that the Knicks would have the biggest dropoff recordwise in franchise history between consecutive seasons.