Mailbag: Is J.R. Smith the Knicks best triangle player?

From KnicksTape: I know this sounds crazy, but do you think JR Smith could be a better player to build a triangle offense around and the Knicks should try to sign and trade Melo instead of resigning him.

Harris Decker

A few days ago on the TKB Podcast, we first raised this question from KnicksTape. It stuck in my head and I wanted to discuss it in full.

What this question tells me, above all else, is that Knicks fans are still learning what is involved in the triangle offense. The system requires players with the ability to shoot from outside, shoot from inside, pass and cut.

That makes J.R. Smith a perfect piece in the triangle. The only area that Smith isn’t above-average in is passing.

I believe that if Smith is a part of Phil Jackson’s long term plan, he and Iman Shumpert can and will flourish. The system was designed with players like those two in mind. Fast, tall guards that can shoot inside and out. Smith’s ability to consistently knock down outside shots should be fun to watch.

That being said, saying that Smith is the “better player to build a triangle offense around” is silly. Carmelo Anthony is the best player on the Knicks and the ideal triangle big. He can play in both the inside and outside spots, with the ability to shoot from anywhere on the court. The attention that he will draw in the post will help to setup the rest of the triangle. Finding a big that has those qualities is much harder to find.

Without Anthony, Smith and Shumpert would be far less effective. You need the big guy who can shoot to set the entire triangle up. Smith can be a great player in the triangle but if you’re thinking about building around a player in that system, Anthony has to be the priority player.




328 comments
knickstape
knickstape

Hey im Famous.....but all i was really saying is JR is a better passer and a similar scorer to MELO so if we can get an allstar PG or someone who can pass it could be a benneficial trade......fvck u cowit

Jake Sokol
Jake Sokol

DID YOU JUST SAY WATCH SMITH "CONSISTENTLY" HIT OUTSIDE SHOTS.  when has he ever been consistent at anything? 


tommy2b
tommy2b

The Bargnani trade was incredible stupid.  He was a decent player at one time, but stopped successfully doing the things that made him useful (hitting 3's) years ago.  The only reason Dolan went and overpaid for him was to try to make a splash to counter what Brooklyn was doing in order to keep his corporate season ticket base satisfied for a year. There was absolutely no reason to think Bargnani would be any better for the Knicks.  He had stopped being the go-to guy in Toronto over a year before being traded and was even coming off the bench.  The only hope was the "change of scenery" hail mary.  The trade was especially laughable considering the Raptors were planning to amnesty him.


I'm just glad that Phil's here and we don't have to suffer through this kind of idiotic move (and subsequently watching Biggie contort himself into a pretzel to convince himself it was a good deal).

knicksjp18
knicksjp18

wow mozgov has 22 rebounds in three quarters against the warriors

lobcity1
lobcity1

Wowwwww.

Iggy just broke Miller ankles!!!!

lobcity1
lobcity1

Looking at the Nuggets and we really came up with the Melo trade.

Gallo& ill Will= Injured every year

Honestly the only player I really wanted was Mozgov bc he has some potential and cheap big man.

rico
rico

Harris when you say JR is the Knicks best triangle player you are referring to female genitalia right?  



Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

The Knicks and will not catch a break with their remaining games against playoffs teams. The Raptors and Bulls (3 games against us) are tied for the 3rd seed at 46-32. Brooklyn is the other game and they would love to beat us. The Hawks also face Miami and Charlotte both battling for a higher seed as well.

VerySilentJay
VerySilentJay

@Sandro Guedes  It was already reported that Jax would squash any limitations "external entities" would try to impose. 

HypoCrit_calNYKfans
HypoCrit_calNYKfans

@zdiddy4nyk   


Like I said once before on a thread when someone else was making sense in an analysis of the knicks and the Knicks players, I told him in a round about way that he would have more luck in getting his sensible analysis understood if he had went to a zoo and shared it with a drugged up baboon than with some of the imbeciles here at TKB who have given up on learning a long time ago!

Ray Jorge
Ray Jorge

@zdiddy4nyk FINALLY SOMEONE WHO UNDERSTANDS THE GAME OF BASKETBALL!!! ALL OF THESE LET'S BLOW IT UP IT'S BARGS FAULT ARE REALLY KNICK HATERS OR SPURNED LIN LOVERS! THEY DESPISE MELO IGNORE THE FACT THAT THE OTHER "A LIST STARS" HAVE AT LEAST 1 OTHER ALLSTAR & TOP 15 POINT GUARD BUT IT'S MELO'S FAULT THAT ALL THOSE PLAYERS BECAME INJURED & GRUNFELD THOUGHT STARTING THE SEASON WITH A POINT GUARD COMBO OF FELTON PRIGS BUENO WAS AWESOME "DEFENSIVELY"!!! SMMFH!!! ZDIDDY"S POST SHOULD HAVE A REPOST BUTTON FOR ALL THE.....,.,

BigChiefTriangle
BigChiefTriangle

@zdiddy4nyk  

For the Knicks, the numbers show that the team's offense (pts. scored per 100 possessions relative to opponent) AND defense (pts. allowed per 100 possessions) worsened every time Bargnani stepped on the floor.  This was true even when the Knicks had Chandler, Pablo, etc. on the injured list.  And Bargani's net-negative team effect materialized often in Toronto. 


Then again, Bargs has not been the only culprit, just one of them.  "Net-negative" was a theme for much of the Knicks' supporting cast this season - Amar'e, Timmy, and Bargnani. All three were near the bottom of the league in real plus/minus: http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/sort/RPM

sanza
sanza

@bockers  ahhh..Irvin..where is he now?

and btw, is there any reason you put their name as the worst TKB posters ?

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@lobcity  

As bad as the Nuggets are, they still have a better record than we do, even though they play in the West.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@OLDKNICK  

Hey, this trade was awful and many posters were on it from day one.

2013-14 Knicks with Bargnani 15-27, without him 18-18.

2012-13 Toronto with Bargnani 10-25 without him 24-23.


xmenreturn
xmenreturn

@OLDKNICK Trade our #2 option? After only 1 year?  Can't he get 10 years like Melo? lol

Biggie told us AB was the real deal and that he would avg 18-20 pts a game for the season. 

I'm starting to think Biggie don't have a feel for the game.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@lobcity @knicksjp18 

Mozgov got 29 rebounds. He got the interview with David Thorpe and says, "I work hard. Some nights rebounds just come into your hands." This is a season high for the NBA. 

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Kiyan Carter  

We did give up too much for Melo, based on the trades for CP3 and Dwight Howard. No knock on Melo, we could have had him for less.

lobcity1
lobcity1

Knicks_Fanatics.

This year is just a horrible year for the Knicks.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Biggie @Knicks_Fanatic 

Yes, but Toronto and the Bulls both want to be 3rd. They will go all out for that spot. 4 will face the Nets. 3 will get ether Washington or Charlotte. That is a major difference. We will not face any teams that will rest players.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Biggie @OLDKNICK 

Stop.....

First he is better than Novak and now he is a partial disaster. Make up your mind.

Bargnani has been a partial disaster for the last three years. He was our second best player in November and we went 2-12. being the second best player on a team that goes 2-12 is not anything noteworthy.

rico
rico

Bargnani is not a center .why sre you beating up on Bargs. Noone expects him to be a defensive force, when he tries, he gets hurt.

johneco
johneco

@Knicks_Fanatic How come Bargnani doesn't ever have one of those nights where rebounds come into his hands?  He must be running away from them.

lobcity1
lobcity1

Just glad it wasn't on us.

HypoCrit_calNYKfans
HypoCrit_calNYKfans

@BigChiefTriangle   


The Knicks also had a "five game winning streak" with AB at the 5 and they were playing their best basketball! That was until Woodson put an out of shape Chandler back into the starting line up, then the Knicks went south for good!

rico
rico

Who cares about Bargnani? He was a bad aquistion and will be gone after next season if not sooner. Is there no end of blame receptacles ?

BigChiefTriangle
BigChiefTriangle

@zdiddy4nyk  

And later that January, the Knicks went on a 5-game losing with Bargnani's move to PF.  Then they won 4 in a row after he sat.  


2 games, chief...give me a break.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@zdiddy4nyk @Knicks_Fanatic@BigChiefTriangle 

Last year in Toronto with Bargnani on the floor, his team scored 94 and gave up 109. The Raptors as a team were 105.9 and 107.9. They were much worse with him on the floor. 10-25 when he played and 24-23 when he was out.

Why trade anything for a player like that?

BigChiefTriangle
BigChiefTriangle

@Biggie  

"Again.. we took some chances on trades and signings when most people thought we'd not be able to make ANY changes to the roster"

That's does not seem like a good way to gauge a GM's ability. Every contract is trade-able as long as you include enough draft picks.  A GM doesn't deserve a pat on the back for merely "taking chances on trades and signings".  

When people said the Knicks would "not be able to make moves", they were implying that the Knicks did not have many player assets that could be moved independently  The team had to package assets (1st-round picks and 2nd-round picks) just to get rid of liabilities (Camby, Novak, etc.) - never mind the actual acquisition of a talented player in return.

BigChiefTriangle
BigChiefTriangle

@Biggie @Knicks_Fanatic  

"the AB deal saved us money in 2015  although at the cost of the pick swap with denver.. "


Let's be clear here....the AB deal saved $3.75M (and if I recall, you believe this to be irrelevant since the Knicks will be swapping expirings for longer deals in order to operate above the cap).  

And that $3.75M savings did NOT come at the cost of a pick "swap" - it came at the cost of a 1st-round pick with conditions (the lesser of Denver and NY picks).  A draft pick was lost in that deal, not just the right to swap picks.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Biggie  

Billups was due $14.3 million at age 35  and Bargnani was due $23.5 million over two years. These are not the types of deals that one makes to win a championship. 

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Kiyan Carter  

You guys never mention that we took back Billups, Shelden Williams, Balkman, and Carter, along with Melo. Billups cost us amnesty that we could have used on Amare.

lobcity1
lobcity1

Knicks_Fanatic.

Lol

Yea I know but its just really sad how plenty of teams that have less talents than the Knicks are playinf better.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Biggie @Knicks_Fanatic 

Look at it this way. Would you rather have one of the best pinch hitters in MLB or a below average first baseman? Bargnani does not have one skill that is even close to the league average. Novak is only second to Curry in shooting the three ball.

Bargnani never thrived at anytime as a Knick. We were 15-27. And please backup your claim that Novak only thrived in blowouts as a fourth or fifth option.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Kiyan Carter  

Maybe I'm just too old to understand modern basketball. When I played, the idea was to move the ball and find the open man. Then the open man takes the shot. The Knicks did that back in 1969 and 1973 and won two titles.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@Kiyan Carter  

So what? Bargnani hit only 44.2% of his shots and 27.8% from three. What good does driving do, if you can't shoot.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@xmenreturn @Knicks_Fanatic 

He got canned. Maybe he tried and lost. Dolan did get to tour with the Eagles.

Dolan wouldn't pay the tax on Lin $25 million for 3, but took bargnani $23.5 million for 2.

Dolan didn't want to get taken again by Uriji. No way that Dolan felt he got taken in the Melo deal. So it must have been Bargnani.

Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@xmenreturn  

Bargnani is one of the worst players in the NBA. Plus we lost Novak and his 45% career Knick three ball shooting, a 2016 first rounder, and two second round picks.

xmenreturn
xmenreturn

@Knicks_Fanatic @xmenreturnLOL Yep!  Poor Biggie!  So many of us tried to tell him that beforehand! 


Knicks_Fanatic
Knicks_Fanatic

@xmenreturn @Knicks_Fanatic 

Many posters saw Bargnani reverting to his early Toronto days, where he was a #2 to Bosh. However he is actually no better at shooting the three ball than Landry Fields, no better a rebounder than Landry Fields, and a far worse defender. However, he is tall and a former number 1 pick.